tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-140751478530786985.post4453020003834423136..comments2020-03-13T12:29:41.023-04:00Comments on Exeter CRC: Domestic Violence and the ChurchUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-140751478530786985.post-41860542158649024362008-04-20T22:29:00.000-04:002008-04-20T22:29:00.000-04:00I'm personally confused by Annette's comments.'''B...I'm personally confused by Annette's comments.<BR/><BR/>'''But this has NO bearing on this discussion. Is having women in spiritual leadership over a body of believers biblical? That's what this discussion is about. Not on the horrors of domestic or child abuse, and the bad responses to it.'''<BR/><BR/>If you are saying that men only have the spiritual leadership role what is being done about the bad responses to things like mentioned in this article? Seems to me the 'authority' needs some education. Biblically, men are to be servant leaders. That doesn't mean they are boss, and get the last word, etc. They are to be loving serving servants, and they are to place everyone else first. THEY are to come last! ie: Washing feet story among others.<BR/><BR/>Sadly, this type of story is not uncommon. I guess people would stop questioning the 'authories' if they were doing the job that was biblically given to them. To often when they are questioned others remind the other gender of their 'role'. That is far from being humble - which is another biblical trait of a leader. The only unquestionable authority is God, and its pride when others mention 'roles' (among other things) to encourage others to silence.<BR/><BR/>Biblical leadership does that have the same meaning as it does in the secular soceity. Jesus states that those that come first must come last. They are to serve all others before themselves.<BR/><BR/>I think what is lacking is education on how that 'authority' is being played out. Don't close the bible - reread those scriptures! People may be questioning things because the roles they claim they are living are to full of pride of their 'role' and not of servanthood.<BR/><BR/>When that changes - that will be the day others stop questioning. Stories like this one of domestic violence would be handled properly. Submission to husbands would come naturally as God intended, because they are loving others as Christ loved the church.<BR/><BR/>Until that happens YES stories like this do apply! It shows that biblical leadership is NOT be given, and you wouldn't be able to see that if others didn't speak out about what it is lacking.<BR/><BR/>Why are we NOT asking where the bottleneck was within that leadership realm that caused the failure of what could have been healing of all parties involved? Leadership is responsible when they know of such things, and when they refuse to educate themselves on realms of sin such as this. Leadership did know in this case, and Leadership did fail. Calling the elder over for dinner wouldn't have changed a thing.<BR/><BR/>I believe when leadership is seen as Jesus intended it to be seen - question of leadership would stop. Authority wouldn't be such a hot topic. It happens when leaders in authority fail in their calling.<BR/><BR/>What does your bible say about that? I know what my bible says! If proper biblical leadership was happening your attempt to show this story has no bearing - which is used as a diversion - wouldn't be needed. Most of these types of stories wouldn't be happening, and sadly that isn't the case!Hannahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15165967476661656865noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-140751478530786985.post-80551990342220585562008-04-01T18:04:00.000-04:002008-04-01T18:04:00.000-04:00The only thing you have proven Annette is your uns...The only thing you have proven Annette is your unsuitability for Council.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-140751478530786985.post-73365759625916479192008-04-01T07:26:00.000-04:002008-04-01T07:26:00.000-04:00I didn't say that empathy was the same as letting ...I didn't say that empathy was the same as letting things slide, BUT because women have more empathy, we often use it as excuse to not do what we need to do.<BR/><BR/>We want to fix the owie and make the person feel better MORE than we want to discipline the person who caused the owie in the first place by their wrong behaviour.Annettehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07731853888897956775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-140751478530786985.post-11589653788074567092008-04-01T07:24:00.000-04:002008-04-01T07:24:00.000-04:00Even you would agree that Blacks are equal to whit...Even you would agree that Blacks are equal to white Dutch people. But the curse of Ham clearly indicates that they are, well, cursed. And, traditionally interpreted the blacks are from the line of Ham. Do you think that God wishes to have cursed people in the position of elder and minister. You say, they should be satisfied with what God says for that is their lot in life. <BR/><BR/>--- no actually that's not what I say. The curse against Ham was not a curse against him so much as it was a curse against the Canaanites. They got so wicked that God brought Israel up against them. The curse was fulfilled when Israel destroyed them. That makes it done...finito.<BR/><BR/>Should we (hypothetically speaking of course) have African Americans as elders, deacons and ministers?<BR/>--- since that curse was already fulfilled when Canaan was destroyed...I have no issue with persons of colour being in positions of spiritual authority.Annettehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07731853888897956775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-140751478530786985.post-4458714969161417452008-03-31T19:48:00.000-04:002008-03-31T19:48:00.000-04:00Joan, I'd like to nominate this comment as comment...Joan, I'd like to nominate this comment as comment of the week, worthy of its very own post on the front page of the blog.<BR/><BR/>"I suppose I feel as comfortable going to elders of THIS church for spiritual counseling as much as I feel comfortable as a chicken farmer doing my paps smear or yearly breast exam. I'm not saying that it can't be done it just feels icky and weird and I'm terrified of their credentials."<BR/><BR/>-FJon of Arcadiahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17791912597731360252noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-140751478530786985.post-82134361790880171562008-03-31T12:39:00.000-04:002008-03-31T12:39:00.000-04:00I suppose I feel as comfortable going to elders of...I suppose I feel as comfortable going to elders of THIS church for spiritual counseling as much as I feel comfortable as a chicken farmer doing my paps smear or yearly breast exam. I'm not saying that it can't be done it just feels icky and weird and I'm terrified of their credentials. <BR/><BR/>If you think empathy is the same as letting things slide then you need to go back to the dictionary. I really can't help you there. <BR/><BR/>I think the men are on the other hand very threatened by the fact that women are being seen as equals in all parts of society let alone the church. In fact I think they are terrified of these meek, helpless, empathetic, weak, don't rock the boat kind of people. Wow, that is a lot of power.<BR/><BR/>Now as far as reading the "never changing word of God." Try turning the clock back a few hundred years and people like you and me would have been stoned to death. Women, talking about things that are clearly and only in the domain of women. And rightfully so according to you. In fact I'm thinking of stoning my children for some insubordinate things they have said to me. Which is kind of weird because they don't live with me anymore. <BR/><BR/>I do get the whole women don't have to be an elder or minister to make a difference in the church. I'm telling you that I UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU ARE SAYING BUT I DON'T AGREE WITH YOU SO NO MATTER HOW MANY TIMES YOU OR ANYONE ELSE TELLS ME THIS I THINK THEY ARE FULL OF BUFFALO CHIPS. <BR/><BR/>However I'm interested to switch this up a bit. How does this sounds to you. It is of course hypothetical and is intentionally inflammatory only to make a point. <BR/><BR/>Even you would agree that Blacks are equal to white Dutch people. But the curse of Ham clearly indicates that they are, well, cursed. And, traditionally interpreted the blacks are from the line of Ham. Do you think that God wishes to have cursed people in the position of elder and minister. You say, they should be satisfied with what God says for that is their lot in life. In fact they have it pretty good in the last 60 years. They can fulfill many positions in the church but they can't run it. Statistics also show that you black men have a higher degree of theft and/or violence but that would be a side issue. <BR/><BR/>Should we (hypothetically speaking of course) have African Americans as elders, deacons and ministers?<BR/><BR/>F:)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-140751478530786985.post-40635162425120833462008-03-31T08:56:00.000-04:002008-03-31T08:56:00.000-04:00To Z.One more time! Yes, I am serious in that the ...To Z.<BR/>One more time! Yes, I am serious in that the hypothetical story of sex change, which IS happening in our world, is used to show that it IS a matter of gender. Jesus in his 3 years as teaching Rabbi used many parables and stories to teach a truth.I don't think it's generous of you to refer to "this is for grown-ups" when a person is very serious about this situation in the Exeter CRC. This does not preclude or exclude humour.( HUMOR to US citizens)You know as well as I do that it has caused people to leave the church and has harmed friendships. You also know that those who are opposed to women elders & pastors are quite aware that it's a matter of time. The Synod, CRC's "ruling body" (?) has given time to get used to the change. We who have waited for this change for 35 years (in my case) are getting impatient. <BR/>Lets not diminish each other's humanity.<BR/>C.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-140751478530786985.post-71434075572659074372008-03-31T07:06:00.000-04:002008-03-31T07:06:00.000-04:00Fyes, women are more empathetic and such like. Th...F<BR/>yes, women are more empathetic and such like. That's one of the reasons why we shouldn't be in charge of the SPIRITUAL leadership of the church. It's easier for us to just let things slide because we don't want to rock the boat rather than doing what is right.<BR/><BR/>You missed my point entirely.<BR/><BR/>You talked about how your elder didn't come and visit you. Did you ever ASK him too?<BR/><BR/>Were you in such dire straights that you could not do so? You have that position as well...to ask your brothers (or sisters) for help when you need it.<BR/><BR/>Do people always ask for help when they need it? no. Sometimes it is difficult to do so. But just because it is difficult doesn't change the fact that you can't blame someone for not helping if you never gave the indication that you needed it.<BR/><BR/>Not being willing to close my bible doesn't mean that I don't take the time to think about it. That's what reading the bible means. It means reading it, seeing it as a whole inclusive book, of not picking and choosing what I want to believe and dismissing that which I don't. It means learning of God and reaching out in a way that he calls us to. Even if it's just making soup, or teaching Sunday School, or picking up the garbage that around town, or slowly building a relationship with that quiet person down the street that looks so hang dog all the time. <BR/><BR/>It's talking the whole gospel of Christ as we live our daily lives.Annettehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07731853888897956775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-140751478530786985.post-44723122201160504312008-03-31T00:10:00.000-04:002008-03-31T00:10:00.000-04:00Don't worry Annette the pharisees had difficulty p...Don't worry Annette the pharisees had difficulty putting it down too. They too miss the point. You need to read it, set it down and think about what it means. It requires thought. Men do this a bit better than women but then again. <BR/><BR/>When someone is addicted to drugs or fighting an emotional low it is very difficult for them to have a nice little tea and crumpet party as you suggest. The minister, elders and deacons have to put aside their money counting, programs and wipe the sand from their head when they pull it from the ground and help people who don't even ask for help. People that are in dire straights seldom seek that kind of help. <BR/><BR/>Woman are instinctively more empathetic and nuturing. That's good because they could help in a position of authority and with the authority of the church if it wasn't for a small group of (small in respect to our denomination) of book Christians. <BR/><BR/>So yes Annette. We do have to close our Bibles, think and help. It doesn't exactly say it in black and white but that is the message.<BR/><BR/>FAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-140751478530786985.post-20551226897603790752008-03-30T22:31:00.000-04:002008-03-30T22:31:00.000-04:00F.Not being in a spiritual headship over the churc...F.<BR/>Not being in a spiritual headship over the church does not preclude women from being of support to other men and women. It simply doesn't.<BR/><BR/>No...won't put the bible down. Won't close it. it's where I get my answers from. Closing it means I get my answers from myself...and God is more important than that.<BR/><BR/>the fact that your elder visits you once every couple of years is what...suddenly to change if the genders are changed? no. That's an elder issue and perhaps HE needs to be invited to come on over to your house for a visit, rather than you waiting for him to say..oh right, need to go visit thus and such. Oh..they haven't called stating they need to chat so obviously no big issues going on in their lives. So I will go just to check on how they are doing.<BR/><BR/>So you meet, have a nice chat, gives YOU an opportunity to say, hey...I've got questions about thus and such, can you help me?<BR/><BR/>So can you see there is some give and take in the relationship? That YOU have just as much to offer as they do in how well they do their job as an elder? <BR/><BR/>Oh.....right...forgot...most people think it's all the pastors and elders fault if they don't get their needs fulfilled. And tend to forget that for a church to be the church we need to give as well as take. Giving comes in so many forms and extends in ways that often aren't thought of.Annettehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07731853888897956775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-140751478530786985.post-72389583334728795742008-03-30T15:05:00.000-04:002008-03-30T15:05:00.000-04:00Ok C. I do have a sense of humor. I would likely...Ok C. I do have a sense of humor. I would likely even find that funny if I didn't think you were serious. Is this debate really THAT simple?? THAT black and white?! Are you disregarding any argument that disagrees with your views because of a penis?! <BR/><BR/>I believe Jonathan once said and I don't mind using his words in this case..'this (blog) is for the grown-ups..'<BR/><BR/>I am sure Jonathan will be right tickled to see his words repeated.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-140751478530786985.post-22662692668094161442008-03-30T02:00:00.000-04:002008-03-30T02:00:00.000-04:00Annette. Put the Bible down. Close it. No, real...Annette. <BR/><BR/>Put the Bible down. Close it. No, really close it. Ok. Now. How do you really think that God wants us to behave? <BR/><BR/>What about a world that has women being able to provide spiritual help, spiritual nursing to a wounded female/male soul. Can you not see that women with the same authority as men can use their power for a whole new dimension of spiritual guidance? <BR/><BR/>Our elder comes to visit us once every 1-2 years so that he can check it off his dance card. It is very apparent that he is uncomfortable in his position and we have this nice little conversation about nice things and we all have nice answers. Everything is absolutely nice. <BR/><BR/>It's is not the deep one on one help that the unique gifts that a women comes to the table. Why wouldn't a Council just jump to this. Their perception of the Bible is a little different than the next. Both Biblically justifiable positions, but time wasters non-the-less.<BR/><BR/>FAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-140751478530786985.post-85608323742189283942008-03-30T01:45:00.000-04:002008-03-30T01:45:00.000-04:00Not only is there a point to the story but it does...Not only is there a point to the story but it does come down to the male centre of the universe. It does in the church, for employment pay and a host of other gender benefits. <BR/>F;Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-140751478530786985.post-48095667497424762372008-03-29T22:08:00.000-04:002008-03-29T22:08:00.000-04:00Oh, come on Z, lighten up!!There IS a point to the...Oh, come on Z, lighten up!!<BR/>There IS a point to the "organ" story, if you can get past that word. The sillyness is the fact that only men are allowed into certain positions/offices in the Exeter CRC.<BR/>C.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-140751478530786985.post-45517189131483986982008-03-29T18:51:00.000-04:002008-03-29T18:51:00.000-04:00In Regards to the comment written by C. I have al...In Regards to the comment written by C. I have also signed my name as C. This may have confused some as my stance may be slightly different then the comments like "I guess it really is about the male organ isn't it??". <BR/><BR/>Wow. I think the writer must have still been nauseous after the waste of words and thought put into the last paragraph! Where do I start to respond to this simplistic silliness?<BR/><BR/>J of A..Would this not be characterized as a childish comment??<BR/><BR/>I will now sign as Z. C., you can have C now. <BR/><BR/>ZAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-140751478530786985.post-36368937012490179792008-03-28T07:06:00.000-04:002008-03-28T07:06:00.000-04:00Churches that ignore the realities of assault are...Churches that ignore the realities of assault are not following God's word. And the horror of this story shows this, it shows us how sin can pervade the church. No one wants to believe that domestic violence or child abuse occurs. and because one doesn't wish to believe it, it's easy to ignore or explain away and so forth. Sin is there. I can't defend a church that does this. I also can't defend the individual church members who do this.<BR/><BR/>But this has NO bearing on this discussion. Is having women in spiritual leadership over a body of believers biblical? That's what this discussion is about. Not on the horrors of domestic or child abuse, and the bad responses to it.<BR/><BR/>I recognize that it is easy to link the two, but they are different, and seeing that difference is important.Annettehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07731853888897956775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-140751478530786985.post-19084478632184561242008-03-27T17:12:00.000-04:002008-03-27T17:12:00.000-04:00This abuse story gave me chills and made me nauseo...This abuse story gave me chills and made me nauseous!<BR/><BR/>Some of my friends have said that refusing to treat women as equals is disreapectful and I agree. I'd even call it unfair and an injustice! When these friends called it abuse I couldn't agree with that and considered it just a bit of an exaggeration.<BR/>Now however, after more thought and after reading this account from Michigan I'm beginning to see the connection. Physical , sexual, emotional disrespect and abuse shows up in the church when men keep women in a lesser place than themselves. <BR/><BR/>I've had this crazy thought......what would happen if a woman had a sex change operation and the church didn't know it....would she/he qualify to be an elder/pastor in the Exeter CRC??<BR/>I guess it really is about the male organ isn't it?? And I don't mean the musical kind!<BR/>C.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com